VC :   Victor Calia

LM :  Lyle McDonald

VC :   I've been looking forward to getting the opportunity to interview you for our website.  I think our website visitors will appreciate your amazing depth of knowledge regarding low carb and ketogenic diets.

LM :   I appreciate that.   But I want to make it clear that if it weren't for the work of a lot of other low carb pioneers, I never would have gotten as involved with them as I did. Thanks, as well, for the interview chance, my mom always loves seeing my name in print.

VC :   How did you first get involved with research and writing?

LM:   I got involved in reading research in college.  As a cyclist, I was constantly bombarded by supplement ads and promises of magical results.  As an exercise physiology major, I was getting the background to start doing my own reading in the biomedical library and check out the claims.  That was really when my love for reading medical research began and it's continued ever since. As far as writing, I started really writing (outside of school that is) in 1993 when I got on the internet, which was still more or less in its infancy.  I found a couple of Usenet groups and since I was bored (and fresh out of college), I started writing little articles about whatever was on my mind that week.  People seemed to like it so I kept it up.  That probably produced about 30 mini-articles.

VC :   What do you think of the resurgence of the low carb diet in the United States these past few years?

LM :   Well, if you look at the history of dietary trends, it is always cyclical so I'm not really surprised at the resurgence these days.  Beyond that, I think a lot of people are realizing that the high-carb dogma, or at least how it is interpreted by most folks (who think that, as long as they reduce dietary fat, they can eat as much as and whatever they want) isn't
working.  While I don't think that low-carbohydrate diets are automatically the optimal dietary solution for everyone under all circumstances, there is no doubt that they work incredibly well for a lot of people.  I would personally like to see them take their place as an alternative to higher-carb diets.  Not that they should become the default diet for everyone, but as an accepted, mainstream alternative for those folks who don't get good results with more traditional approaches.  I would prefer that to the constant bickering about which diet is THE BEST, as if any single diet could be appropriate for all individuals and all goals.

VC :   How did you develop your base of knowledge on ketogenic diets?

LM :   In 1995, I got introduced to ketogenic diets through a book called Bodyopus written by the late Dan Duchaine.  It described a cyclical ketogenic diet (which alternates periods of ketogenic dieting with periods of high carbohydrate intake) and I decided to try it.  I was sort of bored that summer, and had always wanted to be lean, so I figured what the heck. Since everyone was clamoring for information, I started doing a weekly diary of my experiences, what I tried, what my results were, etc.  I developed what you could call a cult following and I still get emails from folks who just now came across the diaries, telling me how it motivated them to try the diet, that sort of thing.

VC :   I remember reading that diary online several years ago.  It was incredibly detailed and informative.  You didn't get paid to write it though.

LM :   Correct, but that ultimately led to some paid writing jobs for various newsletters, both print and electronic.  A little while later, disappointed with the lack of really objective information about keto diets, a friend and I decided to co-author a book.  For a variety of reasons, the co-authorship fell apart and I ended up having to finish it myself.

VC : And of course, that book is "The Ketogenic Diet".  I have to say that in my opinion, it is the new bible of low carb diet books.  How long did it take you to write it?

LM :  It was a nightmare and that's no joke.  With the time lost when the co-authorship fell apart, and my general laziness/disorganization, it took a total of 2 years to finish (I was telling folks "just 2 more months and it will be done" for the better part of a year). In addition, I had to read over 600 research papers to get all the information for the book and to really understand what was going on so that I could coherently write about it.  All that research is referenced in the book.

VC :   How would you say it differs from the most popular ketogenic diet books on the market, namely Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution and the Eades' Protein Power diet?

LM :   Well for one, my book is not an easy read.  It is not going to hold your hands through setting up a ketogenic diet and making food choices.  You won't find recipes, or food plans or even food lists although I wish now I had included them.   I wrote it to be a reference book for ketogenic diets, looking at what was really going on in the body when you're on the diet, addressing and trying to answer every question I had ever come across on the internet or elsewhere.
I also wanted to provide a resource for people to take to their doctors or dieticians, with all the research references available, to show them that the diet isn't going to kill them, isn't going to put them in an acidotic coma, isn't going to cause kidney failure, all of that type of stuff.  Basically, there was just so much misinformation about ketogenic diets, on both sides
of the fence (pro and con) that needed correcting.  But I had to remain as objective and scientific about it, which makes it just a little bit dry. There are also some very technical sections that were an unfortunate necessity, although I tried to explain things as much as possible (and, the feedback that I'm getting is that even folks without rigorous scientific backgrounds aren't having huge problems, except with maybe one or two sections).

VC :   This is actually the first book of its kind then as the Atkins, Eades, Sugar Busters, etc. books really are written for the lay person and not the medical practitioner or scientifically oriented person.

LM :   Exactly.  So if you just want a basic handbook of what the diet does (more or less) and how to basically set it up and follow it, there are actually  better books out there then mine.  My particular favorite is the Eades, "Protein Power". However, if and when you want to know exactly what a ketogenic diet is doing to your body, or the physiology involved, or how to absolutely optimize the diet for your goals, or how exercise affects fat loss, my book is really the only one out there that has all that information.  Just be aware of what you're getting yourself into if you try to get through it.

VC :   Speaking of exercise which is obviously very important to having long term success with any weight loss plan, which type do you advocate mostly?

LM :   Another potentially long question.  While I think both forms of exercise are important, I am personally a little bit biased towards weight training.  Aerobic exercise has simply been vastly over-rated from a weight loss point of view, although it can be helpful.  It's simply not possible for the average person (especially if they are very overweight) to burn
enough calories with aerobic exercise to really make a difference in the big scheme of things.  They simply can't work out long enough or hard enough to really impact calorie balance.  It is obviously important for other reasons and, with progressive overload, dieters can increase their aerobic capacity and calorie burning potentially pretty significantly.

VC :   I agree totally.  I've been training for over 16 years and I've noticed, especially with women, that the ones with the leanest appearing bodies are those who are doing the weight training, and supplementing that with some mild form of aerobic exercise.  Most people overdo the aerobic and neglect the weights I think.

LM :   Yes.  I personally think that weight training should be a required part of any weight loss effort for a variety of reasons.  The main one is that most diets cause you to lose some muscle mass, which slows metabolic rate and increases the risk of weight regain when the diet ends.  Weight training can prevent this loss, at least as long as calories aren't reduced by too much (which is a very common mistake among dieters, especially women).  In beginners in fact, it is not uncommon to gain muscle while losing fat, which may actually raise metabolic rate.  There are also a host of health reasons to perform weight training. So if I had to choose a single form of exercise (i.e. a person could only do one or the other for some reason), I would choose weight training.  But most beginners should be able to work in some amount of both into their diets without it requiring undue time commitment (my beginner workout program only requires 2.5-3 hours per week maximum across 3 different days).

VC :   What is your opinion of the ADA's food pyramid recommendations?

LM :   That could really open up a can of worms.

VC :   Go for it.

LM :    I understand where the ADA is coming from actually and have read a lot of the research that they are basing their recommendations on.  The problem is that the message that is getting out to the American people is getting garbled.  For a long while, people got the message that only fat intake mattered and, as long as you kept fat intake down, you could eat however you want.  While that may be the case in short-term studies, or in studies that provide high-fiber unrefined carbohydrates, when you start feeding folks rice cakes and bagels and foods that provide a lot of calories without a lot of bulk to fill them up, you run into problems.  But people forgot that calories still mattered. In fact, I'm seeing a recent trend in obesity research back towards more moderate carbohydrate intakes, adequate amounts of healthy proteins and fats, and less refined grains and stuff.  Actually very similar to the Zone, by Dr. Sears.  I predict that in the next few years, that will become
the major popular diet.

VC :    That makes sense in terms of popularity. However, I doubt the government will completely comply with or condone it, but that's another interview entirely.  I mean, how can a diet recommendation comprised of 60-70% carbohydrate with up to 11 servings of grain derived product per day (as advocated by the pyramid) be a sound recommendation for everyone in the country?

LM : I think the key word there is "everyone".  Dietitians seem to have gotten a lot of their carbohydrate requirements from groups that are either a) engaged in very intensive training (which requires a lot of dietary carbohydrate to sustain) or b) eating primarily unrefined foods. So when someone tells me "Oh, the Chinese eat 70% carbohydrates and don't get fat so carbs aren't the problem." I have to point out that they are a lot more active than we are, don't drive everywhere in their cars, don't sit in front of computers all day, and aren't eating the kind of refined low-fat, high-calorie crap that we are.  Yeah, if all you ate was brown rice and vegetables, and had to walk everywhere because you didn't have a car, there probably wouldn't be a problem. But that is not how Americans are interpreting the high-carb guidelines that are out there.  With the glut of high-carb, high-sugar, high-calorie foods, people can eat zero fat and still eat a ton of calories (all of it refined sugar).  So that is no better than eating a higher fat diet.  In fact, one paper I recently read pointed out that when dietary fat gets too low, appetite tends to increase because food digests faster.  So a lot of these zero-fat foods are actually going to make people hungrier in the long run.  Great for the companies selling this stuff, bad for the American public. Now, my belief is that the diet should be tailored to the individual based on such factors as activity level (if you are more active, you need more dietary carbohydrates ; if you are less active, you need less), food preferences, and things of that nature.  In do disagree with the standard ADA mantra that there is a single best diet for everyone under all situations. High-carb diets are appropriate in some cases but not all.  Moderate-carb diets (like the Zone) are appropriate in some cases but not all. Low-carbohydrate diets (Atkins, Protein power) are appropriate in some cases but not all.  This is a lesson that everyone involved needs to learn.

VC :   So in devising a health program to your clients, you vary the diet based on the individual.

LM: Yes, plus the amount and type of exercise, their ultimate goals, previous experiences with dieting, food preferences, mental demeanor, etc, etc.  I'm finding that a lot of people (and realize that most of the folks I work with, mostly via internet, are bodybuilders or very active) are picking ketogenic/cyclical ketogenic diets as the default choice and I think that can be a mistake.  A lot of people do great just by decreasing their intake of really refined carbs and replacing them with vegetables.  Of course, if you simply hate vegetables, that won't work too well.   When that stops working, we reduce total carbohydrate intake.  If necessary, we go all the way to zero carbohydrates (with the understanding that, if they are involved in intensive exercise training, they will need carbs eventually to sustain that).  So it's a very dynamic process depending on a lot of factors. As another example, a lot of people simply get bored with low carb diets because the food choices are so limited (others like it for exactly that reason, it's simple and makes meal planning so easy).  In that case, even if it's not as optimal, I think a moderate carb diet is the better choice, because it allows more food variety.  As the old saying goes "Good advice not followed is bad advice."  So as much as I'd love to tell people "Do this because it's best", I have to weigh that against the reality of what they will do in the long-term in practice.  If they won't stick to a ketogenic diet, whether or not it's optimal for their goals is irrelevant, and I have to find an alternative.

VC :   What about nutritional supplements?  How do they fit in if at all?

LM :   In all honesty, there aren't a lot of required supplements for a ketogenic diet.  Yes, a multi-vitamin is a good idea on any calorie reduced diet, ketogenic or not.  There is also research showing that extra minerals are necessary on a ketogenic diet (this also helps with the fatigue a lot of people get).  And I think anti-oxidants are a good idea, whether you're dieting or not.

VC :   I am an advocate personally and take a lot of supps when seriously low carbing. LM: But, there's not really anything that you *need* to take.  There are some  products such as the ephedrine/caffeine stack that can be helpful for fat loss but they can cause side effects, and many people (again, remember I get most of my e-mail from bodybuilders who tend to be a bit nuts about supplements) use protein powder and/or flax oil to get protein and essential fatty acids.  A fiber supplement can be helpful although eating a big high-fiber salad can work wonders for regularity.

VC :   Do you have any other books you're working on at the moment?

LM :   I have been half-heartedly working on a beginner exercise handbook, basically expanding the routine I put in my ketogenic diet book.  I want to include pictures of the basic exercises I think beginners should do, and provide workout sheets to record each workout.  Basically, it would walk beginners through the 8 week program I used to use with beginning clients with great success.  But it hasn't been going as quickly as I'd hoped, I think the effort of the first book just took a lot of my enthusiasm out of me, although a second book would be a lot easier (hopefully I'd avoid making the same mistakes again, although I'd probably make a bunch of new ones).

VC :   Anything else?

LM :   I've considered doing a major retooling of the big ketogenic diet book, trying to make it a little bit more readable for people and covering some of the topics that have come up that weren't addressed.  The big problem I ran into with the big book was trying to make it all things for, all people. So it has all the technical details for the doctors, dietitians and researchers, all the really detailed exercise stuff for the hardcore athletes, and beginner stuff for the basic dieters.  Some food lists would probably be useful and, as bad as I am at making them, some sample diet plans, to give folks an idea of how to set up their diet would be included. That would be a later project though, I'm still worn out from the first
one.

VC : Well I hope you recover quickly and keep writing books of this caliber.  Thanks again for taking time out for this interview and good luck with all your future projects.